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Majestic Titan vs Holy Knight, also Seeds of Aggression

Directly under the preview there was a discussion if Majestic Titan can interact with Holy knight.
Short Version :
You can Force Holy knight to deal its damage to other Units, but Holy Knight can not be chosen to recieve the damage.
Also Seeds of Aggression can deal Damage to Holy Knight.
EDIT : The card does say 'target' which i overread. Can't use Seeds of aggression on an unexhausted Holy Knight.

Why ? Because of the way affecting something is described in the FAQ and the way things were handled up till now, namely that event chains don't matter. (If A causes B and B causes C, the game does not rule that A causes C).
Sources for this are further below.

How does this affect Majestic Titan and Holy Knight ?
1. If the Titan hits the Holy Knight the event for Befuddling Blow does definitely trigger. The Question is if Holy Knight is immune to the effect.
Obviously the 'Befuddling Blow' is used by an opponent in the example, so the only thing that could go wrong is that it does not qualify as 'affecting'.
The relevant part in the FAQ says

[...] A card does not affect another card if an effect chooses it, or if it targets another card with an attack.

Now it is not exactly clear what 'it' references, so we rewrite the statement to make talking about it a little easier.
It either means :

[...] A card A does not affect another card B if an effect chooses A, or if A targets another card with an attack.

or

[...] A card A does not affect another card B if an effect chooses B, or if B targets another card with an attack.

The first statement is obvious. If such things needed explanation the rule book would need 10x times more text.
(The seconds statement also seems like it could have been written in order to future proof for Seeds of aggression which just ended up not formally causing an attack.)
But now Befuddling Blow does not (formally) affect Holy Knight and the effect has to be evaluated.

2. What if Holy Knight is on the damage receiving side of befuddling blow.
It would be explicitly allowed to chose (but not target) the Holy Knight by the FAQ.
However Befuddling Blow targets the damage receiving Unit so Holy Knight would be affected, hence is immune.
Note that the other case worked because there the Holy Knight was chosen (by the phrase '[...] that Unit [...]') and not targeted.

Edit (all wrong, it does read target) : For Comparions : <wrong>The Card Seed Of Aggression choses both its 'targets'/chosen Units, so Holy Knight can be affected by it. This is where the 'Chain of Events' stuff is relevant.
Yes you use a spell to cause a Unit to deal damage to Holy Knight, but that does not imply that the damage the Unit deals is caused by a spell an Opponent uses (example further below).
Since Holy Knight is not immune to being dealt damage by a Unit, the effect concludes.it**

Conclusion : You can Force Holy knight to deal its damage to other Units, but Holy Knight can not be chosen to receive the damage. Edit : Also Seed of Aggression can not be used on an unexhausted (opposing) Holy Knight.
=======Sources=======

The FAQ :

A card affects another card or player if it attaches, destroys, removes from the game, targets with an effect, deals damage from an effect, places tokens, removes tokens, moves tokens onto or from another card, cancels it, modifies an ability, or modifies base stats of a unit. A card does not affect another card if an effect chooses it, or if it targets another card with an attack.

Rules up till now :
It is also established, that we do not have to keep track of what causes what.
The main example for this comes from this thread by the User tony78000#2u2d :

Attack with snake --> damage on illusion unit --> trigger illusion ability --> destruction of illusion unit

The scenario with the bat attacking phoenixborn would be like this :
Attack with bat --> activate bat swarm ability --> damage on illusion unit.

Why would illusion trigger in the 2nd case while consume does not trigger in the 1st case ? Both wording contains "as a result of", and if we take your logic on bat case, the destruction of the unit in the 1st case is also due to the attack of the snake (that you control), hence triggering Consume. However, it has been officially ruled that Consume does not trigger in this case. By analogy, it seems legit to say that the illusion ability won't trigger in the 2nd case.

This is the closest we can ever hope to come to logical proof without direct developer ruling.


Comments

  • I wish Seeds of Agress did not use both 'Choose' and 'Target'... are we sure that the target text on seeds of aggression is permissible by Indomitable? I thought that meant it was being targeted by the effect of the spell and would therefore formally affect, but your post made me second guess that.

    I would say that a card with text "unexhaust target unit, it attacks another target unit controlled by a different player" or something would resolve on an initially exhausted holy knight (This is in reference to the no chain of affects info, which is nicely laid out by OP)

  • Seeds of Aggression cannot target an opponent's (unexhausted) Holy Knight, because it is indeed affected due to being targeted by an effect. "Choose" is a word commonly used in conjunction with targeting, and does not negate that targeting (nor does it imply that the effect is choosing; it is an imperative to the player requiring them to choose a target unit). This is unambiguous, because the card text explicitly specifies you are choosing a "target" unit, and the FAQ explicitly defines an effect "targeting" something as also "affecting" it.

    So the conclusions above are half right: Majestic Titan can indeed force Holy Knight to deal damage to other units (since the card chooses "that unit", it is not affected), but Seeds of Aggression cannot affect an unexhausted Holy Knight at all.

    Of course, once Holy Knight exhausts you can Seeds of Aggression it as much as you want...

  • We had the same discussion when i asked about Law of Banishment being counter able.
    There i was told that 'chosing' an opponent is in fact different from targeting.
    I think it was even you who said it.

    I overread the the 'target Unit' though. So you are still right.

  • Yeah, choosing an opponent is indeed different from targeting (unless the card says "Choose target player", I suppose, though I don't think there are to date any cards that directly target a non-game element). Seeds of Aggression indeed chooses two target units, though.

  • I would have really liked a card that works around Holy Knights impenetrable.

    At least we got reclaim soul for the turn one elephant rider.

  • But impenetrable says "Spells, Abilities and Dice powers"
    First Seeds of aggression needs to affect both target units and then when majestic titan ability cannot affect the Holy Knights...?

  • I did not read the word 'target' in Seeds of Aggression when i first wrote this.
    You cannot use it to on an opposing unexhausted Holy Knight.

    You can activate Befuddling Blow if the attacked Unit is a Holy Knight (and the target for the damage is not immune to abilities), because here she is not formally a target.
    You can not chose an unexhausted opposing Holy Knight to receive the damage caused by Befuddling Blow, because she is immune to being a target of the ability.