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Summon Nightsong Cricket

Summon Nightsong Cricket

Card text

Summon Nightsong Cricket

Ready Spell - Spellboard

  1. [[main]]

  1. If you did not Meditate this turn, after this card is discarded from your hand, you may spend 1 [[basic]] to place it onto your spellboard.
  2. [[main]][[exhaust]]1 [[sympathy:class]]1 [[basic]]: Place a Nightsong Cricket conjuration onto your battlefield.
  3. Focus 1: You may, as an additional cost, discard 1 card from your hand to place 1 exhaustion token on an unexhausted copy of this spell that you control. If you do, place an additional Nightsong Cricket conjuration onto your battlefield.

Comments

  • So can you use this before turn 1 and pay the [[basic]] to place it onto your spellboard.
    Logically you did not meditate that turn, as there was no turn, but i'm not sure if that is really the intended interaction.

  • I don't believe you can trigger the Between Realms text outside of the Player Turns Phase (since it explicitly requires a turn as part of its triggering condition), and discarding cards at the beginning of the game is part of the Prepare Phase.

  • Normally in predicate logic when this occurs (referencing an object that does not exist) all references equal true, as there is no counterexample.

    E.g. : Mind Fog Owl says : Unseen: This unit cannot be blocked unless all attacking units without the Unseen ability have been blocked.
    when you only attack with Mind Fog Owls the sentence is equivalent to :
    This unit cannot be blocked unless 'true'. (as there is no Unit without unseen)
    Which is equivalent to : This Unit can be blocked.

    Here you would have ;
    if you did not Meditate this turn, after this card is discarded from your hand, you may spend 1 to place it onto your spellboard.
    which is equivalent to
    if 'true', after this card is discarded from your hand, you may spend 1 to place it onto your spellboard. (as there is no turn in which you meditated)
    which is obviously equivalent to :
    after this card is discarded from your hand, you may spend 1 to place it onto your spellboard.

    In short : I don't think it really requires a turn to be there in the way it is written.
    But the Intention of the author might still be different.

  • Your two examples are not equivalent. In the Mind Fog Owl instance, the sentence as written is satisfied in full; there are no other units without Unseen to block, thus the Mind Fog Owl can be blocked.

    However, with Summon Nightsong Cricket the full sentence is not satisfied unless it is the Player Turns Phase, because that is the only time that you have a "turn" in which you can have failed to meditate. Deciding to arbitrarily ignore part of the condition for activating the effect because part of it cannot be satisfied does not have any prior examples in the Ashes card base or rulings, whereas strictly following the card text as written is very common.

  • However, with Summon Nightsong Cricket the full sentence is not satisfied unless it is the Player Turns Phase

    Alrigth, but i don't see why exactly

    because that is the only time that you have a "turn" in which you can have failed to meditate.

    I don't think that is relevant.
    The question is whether you did mediate at a specific time.
    Now that time point does not exist so you can, in particular, not have meditated at that time.

    "Did you murder that person on the 30th February?" No. Its not even a real date.
    "Did you not murder that person on the 30 February?" Well, Yes.

    Replace 'murder' with 'meditate' and 'on the 30 February' with 'this turn' and it is the same. Or i have gone crazy.

  • But it says this turn so you need to be in this turn you did not meditate. And as you said you can't be on this turn since it is not valid time. Am I wrong?

  • I'm just repeating myself here but,
    exactly one of the following must be true :
    1)I did meditate this turn
    2)I did not meditate this turn
    This is just because 2) is the opposite of 1).
    If there is no turn, 1) must be false. In Consequence 2) must be true.

    Based on how people read the card i believe that it is very likely not intended that you can discard the card outside of a turn and still get the benefit.
    But this also a logical fallacy.

  • The question is whether you did mediate at a specific time.

    You are continuing to arbitrarily break up the conditional trigger. The question is not whether or not a person meditated. The question is whether a person meditated this turn. If there is no turn, then it is impossible to check if the player has meditated or not because half of the condition for the effect cannot be evaluated. If you cannot fulfill the entire conditional, then the effect cannot progress.

    Basically, you are missing the third option:

    1. I did meditate this turn (effect's condition is false)
    2. I did not meditate this turn (effect's condition is true)
    3. I did not have a turn, and cannot check if I meditated or not (effect's condition is false)

    To equate this with your murder example:

    1. I did meditate this turn ("Did you murder someone on Feb. 25th?" => "Yes.")
    2. I did not meditate this turn ("Did you murder someone on Feb. 26th?" => "No.")
    3. It's not the Player Turns Phase ("Did you murder someone on Feb. 30th?" => "I cannot answer that question.")

    I think this boils down to whether we approach the game text from a philosophical/logical standpoint, or a programmatic standpoint (I'm a software engineer, which is why the latter approach is my default). I see why you say it's illogical to say that a person has meditated outside of the Player Turns Phase, but to date the way all other conditionals in the game have been handled has been a strict programmatic reading where you have to fulfill all requirements of the condition before the effect can be resolved.

    For instance, Chant of the Dead effectively has the same type of conditional, just phrased a different way: "During your turn, if this spell has 3 or more status tokens on it...". The only difference between the two cards is that you could potentially trigger Summon Nightsong Cricket's effect on the opponent's turn ("this turn" vs. "your turn").

  • I respect your position but i think we should really stop the debate here.
    It's not that i don't want to answer the post you clearly put effort into - i just think we are not getting anywhere.
    Maybe i'm just not used to the phrasing, maybe i'm just a bit too fixated on my first interpretation - i don't know really.

    The third option is a good argument by the way. However it is very easy to have an unfruitful debate about whether a third options makes sense in context.

    I'm just going to ask my playgroup how they want to handle it and hope for a final FAQ.

  • hope for a final FAQ

    You and me, both! Heck, beyond things like Nightsong Cricket one of these days I'd really like to have a RAW method for the basic task of playing and paying for cards; that was supposed to be in the FAQ pre-Gencon and here we are with it still completely undefined.