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Astrea

Astrea

Card text

Astrea

Phoenixborn

  • Battlefield 5
  • Life 18
  • Spellboard 4

  1. Beguile: When a player would declare attackers, you may place 1 exhaustion token on this card to place 1 exhaustion token on an unexhausted unit you control. If you do, place 1 exhaustion token on a target unit.

Comments

  • I am kinda confused by the the wordings of the effect of this card

    It said "When a player would declare attackers" as the conditions to trigger the effect....so....which of the following is correct?

    (a) The effect can be triggered only in my turn, as only I can tell if I would declare attack or not. (If my opponent said I know you would declare attack, I can simply deny it) So before I really declare attackers, I use Beguile, carry out its effect, and then "declare attackers".

    (b) The effect can be triggered in both my turn and my opponent turn, the sequence should be any player declare that the main action is to attack, Astrea player must stop him or her to continue to speak, (I guess it is normally to say "I am going to attack your phoenixborn with unit A,B,C" or "I will use unit D & E to attack your unit F" etc.) and then use Beguile, carry out its effect and carry on.

    (c) Other answer

  • First : You may use it on opponents turn.

    We know that Beguile can be used during any players turn because it was described that way in the preview of the card by plaidhat.

    Then :
    The Word would is a timing indicator. Normally you can only do things before or after a trigger and Ashes does not use the word 'before'.
    Instead they say 'would' as to indicate that whatever trigger you have gets pushed back on the timeline to make space for whatever is triggered.
    You could also say it this way :
    Now that Astrea is printed, every Attack has another first step 'Beguile-opportunity' which all players have to go through, which happens before the step that was commonly known as 'declaring an attack action'.

    Usually when you do any type of action in a game with interrupts the official version is that you can only really state an intent and then resolve what ever is the result after a bunch of reactions.
    Ashes does not directly phrase it that way in any rules document, but in effect it is the same.

    The whole 'stating an intent' thing is a can of worms itself, do not go into to deeply unless technicalities are amusing to you.

    Astrea player must stop him or her to continue to speak

    No, Astrea being available is public information. The player who is attacking needs to give you an opportunity to react. If they rush through the steps and get a disadvantage from that, it is their fault.

  • One of the main uses of Beguile comes from its wired timing.

    If you have a turtle Guard and a Hammer Knight and declare an attack against my phoenixborn, after beguile has exhausted one of my units and your hammer knight you still are obligated to perform an attack, forcing you to attack with a turtle guard.

  • It's not as complex as all that. There's no new "beguile opportunity" step. The step of declaring attackers is the first thing you do after you announce the action you are taking, which is either "attack a Phoenixborn" or "attack a unit". So the "would declare attackers" step occurs after you announce the action and before you declare the attackers.

    This is the same as any other interrupt. Interrupts are always a bit tedious but it's not really any different than stopping to see if your opponent has Choke or Angelic Rescue. You just have to be aware if it's possible and leave the time for it.

    Player A: "I am attacking your Phoenixborn"
    Player B: "I declare beguile" [pays exhaust cost on Astrea]. "I am targeting this unit I control and that unit you control"
    Player A: "No reaction" (i.e. not using Choke, Angelic Rescue, or Golden Veil to prevent Beguile)
    Player B: "OK" [places exhaust tokens on the units]
    Player A: "OK, I declare this unit as the attacker" (or, if no units are available, the action ends)

  • ups. Yeah i thought it said "when you would declare an attack" and did not read the card again.
    Declaring attackers is a substep of any attack and its not the first step so it is like in doktarrs example.

  • I agree that Astrea's ability seems somehow add a step after declare attack but before declare attacker.

    Would the situation be more complicated when both player is using Astrea? After someone declare to have an attack, both Astrea will have the chance to use beguile. Who should be the one that announce to use beguile first?

    There should be a player to decide to use beguile first follow by the other one. And I guess once the "first" player decided, the "second" player will have to decide based on the decision made by the "first" player.

    If ....

    Player A & B both use Astrea, and player A is having the first player token while player B is declaring attack.

  • There is a rule that if a series of event would happen at the same time, then active player chooses in what order they are resolved

  • There is a rule that if a series of event would happen at the same time, then active player chooses in what order they are resolved

    To expand on this: the Ashes rules have no explicitly-defined method for activating effects. It effectively boils down to all players declaring their responses to a specific trigger, and then the active player decides which order things resolve.

    In practice, people usually go clockwise around the table. So Player A says "I'm taking an attack a Phoenixborn action, and I will use Astrea's Beguile ability." Player B then says, "I will also activate Astrea's Beguile ability."

    Player A decides to resolve their Astrea's ability first. They pay the cost (exhausting Astrea), then exhaust one of their units to exhaust one of their opponent's units. Player B then resolves their Astrea's ability by paying the cost (exhausting Astrea). If Player A exhausted their last unit, that's the end of things (and they really should have thought things through better!). Otherwise, they exhaust a unit to exhaust one of Player A's units. If Player A still has unexhausted units, the attack proceeds. Otherwise, the [[main]] action is lost.

  • I thought this is an issue as I believe the first one that announce to use (or not to use) is somehow disadvantaged. And when it is about the end of the game, who should be the one that declare to use the ability first is critical.

    Player A decides to resolve their Astrea's ability first. They pay the cost (exhausting Astrea), then exhaust one of their units to exhaust one of their opponent's units. Player B then resolves their Astrea's ability by paying the cost (exhausting Astrea). If Player A exhausted their last unit, that's the end of things (and they really should have thought things through better!). Otherwise, they exhaust a unit to exhaust one of Player A's units. If Player A still has unexhausted units, the attack proceeds. Otherwise, the action is lost.

    Here is another example of which player to declare first matters.

    If Player A has 2 unit unexhausted, Player B has 1 only and Player A declare to attack Player B's phoenixborn. So, it is clear that it is Player A's turn and Player A will decide which Beguile will carry out its effect first (if both player decide to use Beguile)

    If Player A is the first player to announce to use Beguile or not,
    If Player A says yes for Beguile, Player B will definitely say no as Player A will exhaust Player B's last unit and make Player B's Beguile cannot be used.

  • who should be the one that declare to use the ability first is critical

    You are entirely correct; this is one of the two big oversights in the core rules (the other being that there's no explicit timing defined for when you pay costs upon declaring a card or effect).

    You've got three options if having an explicitly defined rule for this matters to you a lot:

    • House rule it
    • Abide by the suggested unofficial ruling in my Ashes Rules Reference (section 5.4.1 on p. 11)
    • Help me test out my Raven Rules (WIP; this is compatible with the core rulebook, but wholly replaces the official FAQ and uses declaration order instead of "active player picks" for resolving simultaneous triggers)